Talk:Big Daddy
You know Since the Big Daddy is the iconic face of BioShock, I think a quote would be really, really good. How about this one "Meet the Big Daddy! R.I. reveals Rapture's "knight in shining armor"... or "¡Kill it Mr. B kill it!" (KingShodo 18:25, March 22, 2010 (UTC)) I agree. Majoras revenge!!! (talk) 04:03, May 22, 2013 (UTC) Dude, you just replied to a comment that has been resolved three years ago.Einsteinium99 (talk) 05:08, May 22, 2013 (UTC) Big Daddies with Names The trivia states that four Big Daddies have been named so far. But technically "Subject Delta" isn't a name (Not a real one, anyway). Even "Johnny Topside" is just a nickname. Delta remains unnamed for the entire game.Ant423 03:52, April 24, 2010 (UTC) Question I looked at some concept art in gameinformer and the credits of bioshock and there was a Big Daddy with tentacles on it does anyone think this should be mentioned? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by (talk • ) 16:11, 2010 August 2. Please sign your posts with ~~~~! :There was a lot of concept art for Big Daddies that didn't make it into the final game. Much of it can be found in the BioShock: Breaking the Mold artbook or on the Irrational Games website. ~'Gardimuer' [[User talk:Gardimuer|{ ʈalk }]] 23:10, August 12, 2010 (UTC) Not shattering. I read a few times on some of the pages that if you freeze a Big Daddy, at least in BioShock 2, they will shatter and you will be unable to get items off them. I did this for hours, freezing with the drill, using level 1-3 Winter Blast. I have yet to have an actual Big Daddy shatter. The only type of Big Daddies that shatter are the Alpha Series. Not even the Big Sisters shatter on me. Tested on Easy through Hard mode on the Xbox360 version. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by (talk • ) 18:54, 2010 November 11 (UTC). Please remember to sign your posts with ~~~~. Armor tarnished Bouncer I keep thinking that the armor of the Bouncer in Ryan Amusements is tarnished compared to the one in the first BioShock. So I'm curious if this was something 2K Marin did to make the two previous Big Daddies have an aged look (especially when they've been in Rapture for that long), or is it just me?Evans0305 20:33, June 21, 2011 (UTC) Subject "Gamma" I noticed the concept for Subject Gamma (Symbol Γ) has been spelt "Gama". "Gamma" is spelt with two m's. I'm fixing it.MadHatter121 21:08, October 25, 2011 (UTC) To be honest, the Gama symbol was just used as an example of the Alpha Series, not really the official name for it, especially when the same concepts have the same symbol, but are just the standard damaged Alpha. The "Subject Gama" may just be something easy for Fix to call it, since at the time, they didn't have an official name for the Alphas, and they called them other names like "Mad Daddies". Also, they weren't planning on a "Subject Gama" like this separate from the Alpha Series; it was mostly a concept of what their enemy Alpha was going to look like, and keeping the name like that would also be more speculative to suggest that it was a separate character. May be the name will create some fanfic for it, since there's plenty of users that would love to name it that. In the meantime, I'll note this in the Alpha Series Trivia.Evans0305 22:38, October 25, 2011 (UTC) Um problem Why is it that it says in the bouncer section, that he got his name because of an attack? A Bouncer is a type of body guard, like you see at the front of clubs and stuff. I will fix it later... 02:07, November 3, 2011 (UTC) big daddy helmet glow BIG DADDY HELMET GLOW on the article it mentions a type of fluid that controls the mind and provides the glow, where is this sourced and can someone please give me a transcript. cuz it makes more sense that the helmet just uses lights, because ''' '''A: lights go out when big daddy dies B: Delta took off his helmet and no fluid spilled out C: how would they breathe or see clearly if it was mentioned in concept art or whatever, it probably shouldnt be in the official article because its only concept —The preceding unsigned comment was added by (talk • ) 09:20, 2011 November 18 (UTC). Please remember to sign your posts with ~~~~. Actually, the answers can be found in the main article. I don't have the artbook, but if it says that Big Daddies have their helmets filled with fluid, then it most likely counts as canon. The answer to question A would be that the lights go out because the Big Daddy wouldn't be in any mood, by dint of being dead. The answer to B is that since Delta is a prototype rather than a production model Big Daddy, he doesn't have fluid in his helmet anyway. The answer to C lies in the fact that mass-produced Big Daddies have their organs grafted to sophisticated life-support equipment, therefore their lungs are probably connected to a breathing system while their eyes would be augmented in some form, maybe even through Plasmids. --Willbachbakal 19:02, November 18, 2011 (UTC) :If that information did come from the artbook, then a page number should be added for reference. But even if it isn't in the artbook, there's the evidence of a storyboard for a cut flashback sequence from BioShock 2 that was revealed in the Protector Trials. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39fVoNOhApo ~'Gardimuer' [[User talk:Gardimuer|{ ʈalk }]] 20:48, November 18, 2011 (UTC) Originally they just had men in diving suits and small submarines for that. The novel makes out that attempts to modify men to be capable of walking the sea floor had been ongoing. It was only after the Little Sisters were made that they took on the form we know as Big Daddies. Ravenfirelight (talk) 02:50, October 10, 2013 (UTC) One more thing, do these types were also Rapture's construction workers? They have been drilling deep sea rocks for others to build the other side of the city usually needed for an expansion of the city. ---- Another question, some Big Daddies were not just criminals that has been trasffered into these but also some of them were Little Sister's biological fathers, since Ryan's men have taken their daughters away, the only way to reunited its own daughter is to willingly become a Big Daddy Drill grappling feature explanation I suspect that the main reason why the Bouncer type of Big Daddy didn't use the "drill grappling" feature in other games set in Rapture is because...one of these possibilities: * Financial cutbacks. * That component wasn't maintained as well the rest of the suit. * It's in a version of Rapture that's connected to Columbia as how do we know it is the same Rapture that was seen in the previous two games? Jack probably wouldn't stand a chance against the Bouncer type, if that feature was working. Vae Infectus (talk) 02:17, November 18, 2013 (UTC) So a combination of financial cutbacks and technical cutbacks? Vae Infectus (talk) 15:21, November 18, 2013 (UTC) Besides Bouncers are pure melee specialists, Rosies are the ranged specialists, Rumblers are crowd control specialists and...where do the Lancers fit in? Going off topic now...it was even mentioned in one of Dr Suchong's audio diaries that Andrew Ryan was financially tight with Big Daddy creation. All that was nessesary for the Bouncers to do their job is a means of bringing a painful death to any who would threaten a little sister and the gene tonics to maximise the use of it (e.g. to provide enhanced strength and durability) anything else was probably not considered cost effective. Vae Infectus (talk) 18:39, November 19, 2013 (UTC) Timeline Contradictions I'm thinking about adding a section noting the timeline contradictions about the Big Daddy's development, notably the weirdness of the Alpha development supposedly beginning after Suchong's death, but Delta appearing at New Years 1959 despite Suchong apparently dying later than that. Anyone have anything to add or protest? Ravenfirelight (talk) 18:52, March 6, 2014 (UTC) : Who said that Suchong died after 1959? Haven't you ever heard Bioshock 2 Audio diaries? Currently, the most acceptable date of Suchong's death is 1958. Of course, we will see about that after releasing Burial at Sea Episode 2. : Pawn of Atlas (talk) 13:03, March 7, 2014 (UTC) I have, the problem is that the Big Daddies were supposed to be developed to protect the Little Sister to protect them from splicers as they collected ADAM from the dead, something there wasn't a great call for prior to the war in 1959. Ravenfirelight (talk) 13:23, March 7, 2014 (UTC) : Ah ha! I see what you mean. Actually, I have many curiosities about pre-civil war corpses just like you. Here is my hypothesis : Even it isn't Civil War yet, there are enough splicers( and criminals like Fontaine's followers & Atlas' rebels ) that causes lots of troubles. Because of that, maybe places like Pauper's Drop, Apollo Square where public orders are sucked always have corpses, and people can't even remove those corpses out of their own safety concern. : Pawn of Atlas (talk) 13:33, March 7, 2014 (UTC) : Irregularities all linked with Suchongs Death, Little Sisters being paired and 'gathering', Big Daddies becoming successsful Protectors. ::BioShock is already contradicting, since one of Ryan's diary and some of Suchong's seem to point out that he was alive during the civil war, though the "conflict" could have started before the Kashmir bombing, thus solving the contradiction. If it comes to Burial at Sea, well I prefer to wait for the second episode to have the confirmation (or not) that Big Daddies were already protecting Little Sisters before the New Year's Eve, which could be explain by Suchong being able to watch scientists in Columbia improving his work, thus accelrating his own progress on the protector program, even nullifying his original death. Pauolo (talk) 13:47, March 7, 2014 (UTC) ::It will be very bad if its a second Suchong from another dimension (Tear) after the first one was 'killed' (thus resolving the 'contradiction'). :: Might be possible Little Sisters might have been used (or attempting) to take ADAM out of living splicers ?? Insane ones in Persephone being warehoused there. But they needed something to protect them while they were vampiring live splicers?? Going pretty far but we have at least one example of the end of BS1 where the LS did that to Atlas/Fontaine while HE was still alive...... : Gathering from living splicer? Pretty good idea. But, Little Sister hates living things. She only loves her 'Mr. Bubbles' and corpses(a.k.a. Angels)'. That's why Jack survived from first meeting with Little Sister & Big daddy from Welcome Center. : Pawn of Atlas (talk) 13:47, March 7, 2014 (UTC) ::Uh, not really sure who to respond to at this point. I suppose it isn't inconceivable that there could have been enough splicer criminals around in 1958 to warrant Little Sisters recycling their ADAM, perhaps, but the other issue is the pheromone solution, something Suchong suggested to Ryan during the height of the Civil War chaos (When else would he have suggested it). Ryan's audio diary suggests as much. That really stands out the most. Also, Burial at Sea audio diaries indicate Suchong was alive atleast up until a few months before New Years, leaving scant time for Alexander to develop the Alpha Series pair bond (His audio diaries suggest he did so from scratch because the previous pheromone system attempts were considered inadequate). Maybe he could have produced Delta and Eleanor as a prototype pair by New Years, but its a crunch. All in all, the Big Daddy timeline is a bit wonky. Ravenfirelight (talk) 19:22, March 7, 2014 (UTC) ::Will have to see if the second episode makes it even worse... ::::I don't think this plot hole is ever properly covered in any of the games. It's basically very apparent that the Big Daddy mechanic was thought up first and the story around them was pretty much improvised to fit the story in a very makeshift manner. The facts we do know is that: ::::1. ADAM and plasmids were at some point sold as acceptable products around Rapture that everyone could purchase under the free market ideals of Andrew Ryan. ::::2. Recycling ADAM from deceased splicers was done most efficiently by a slug embedded in the stomach lining of a little girl. ::::What the games never explain is why the girls have to wander around the city with protection even before the city is devastated. The war between Ryan and Fontaine consisted of several localized battles that would have left people dead, yes. But did not impact the rest of the city. The city's funeral homes would have been able to continue working, especially after Fontain's alleged death and things quited down for a while. Corpses would be able to be brought in to a morgue where the Little Sisters would have been able to do their work. There is no solid story based reason for Big Daddies to exist other than a game mechanic with a poor background story. I guess we'll just have to leave it at that. TigerXtrm (talk) 12:24, October 3, 2015 (UTC) : Perhaps the original drill had different detachable toolbits for various jobs (rock drill, auger, grinder etc.) The cone shaped tool might have been developed to defend Little Sisters against Splicers etc. (though a gun is probably better for that) Healed by Little Sisters I was just watching this gameplay video of BioShock 2 where the player used Hypnotize to make Splicers attack a Rosie. At the end of the last fight, we can see the Little Sister it protects healing him a bit by injecting him ADAM with her syringe. I'm pretty sure that before Burial at Sea 2 I've never seen such gameplay feature before, or never noticed it, and after running a quick search through the wiki I see that no pages mention this. Pauolo (talk) 14:38, May 9, 2014 (UTC) - There is a small mention of this, but it does not go into detail:- see the Little Sisters page > section BioShock 2 > third paragraph > Additionally.......... :So it's only in the second game? That's funny, because it was mirrored at the end of Burial at Sea 2. Pauolo (talk) 22:19, May 10, 2014 (UTC) - Cool I never noticed that before. Also, does anyone know the name of the music in the video? It's really catchy. Night at the Kashmir (talk) 20:38, May 10, 2014 (UTC) :That name is actually written at the bottom of the video's description. It's from Bio2 as well. Pauolo (talk) 22:19, May 10, 2014 (UTC) :Thanks! Night at the Kashmir (talk) 15:40, May 13, 2014 (UTC) I just noticed, while playing Bio2 that durring a battle with a Big Sister, The Big Sister will go to a corpse (adam filled) and drain adam to get more health o.O Shacob (talk) 13:46, May 13, 2014 (UTC) :That I knew, it was part of the game-play features of the Big Sisters. I believe they can do that with live Splicers as well. Pauolo (talk) 14:38, May 13, 2014 (UTC) :okey, I was just wondering, because i cant found it on the Big sister page (or maybe Im just blind) :Shacob (talk) 14:53, May 13, 2014 (UTC) : The history statement should have red that "... this led to kidnapping of young girls to help aid the growing gatherings of splicer corpses..." etc etc. Nonetheless, there were gatherers before the Civil War because there was already much tension in certain parts of the city. This is highlighted in the novel (which most can debate whether canon or not, but we can take a pinch from each to help mend together a story with what official information we have) as splicing happened before the Civil War began, from the fight with Fontaine's men and Ryan's "police" force to violence in the poorer areas or even between shop owners (One shop owner killed another over a small dispute, the killer had spliced and grew easily irritable). : Also, could be the fact that splicers who died of natural causes like industrial accidents or old age were sent to the mortuary and it so happens that the little sisters were there as well. Tricksteroffools (talk) 21:10, May 15, 2014 (UTC) ::I was gonna add in the pages's behind the scenes section about the conflict of canon. We previously decided on the wiki with several other active members how to handle this mess, and what came out was to consider Suchong's death in Burial at Sea 2 as cannon and Alexander working in parallel on a bond of his own, instead of starting to add templates for each canon when both are only contradicted by a single detail. Also there were already corpses in Rapture due to rogue splicers and the bloody fight between Fontaine's men and and Ryan's security forces three months before the actual war (and lots of splicers among them too). Little Sisters already existed too because they were used for regular ADAM production, but it wasn't enough for the city's need and Suchong had the idea of recycling it from dead splicers, hence starting the Protector Programm. Also please sign your posts on these talk pages. Pauolo (talk) 21:24, May 15, 2014 (UTC) ::---- :::So you have an opinion? Would have been great to hear it when we discussed this whole mess for days, and it was only a month ago, so honestly I don't give a fig about something we already went through and more than necessary. :::And what makes you think the whole protector program took a couple of days to be initiated? It took several months to be working, and probably another one after Suchong's death to bond the Big Daddies already produced, because they were already created at that time for maintenance and construction only. So the bond just took 3 to 4 months to be worked on. It was probably easy task for Suchong to create new mental conditioning for the Little Sisters since that was his specialty (Jack was probably more complex to work on), but bonding the insensitive Big Daddies was the real deal. As for funding, probably didn't took Ryan long since he saw the ADAM market as a gold farm, and he was the riches man in Rapture, even more after taking over Fontaine's business. Pauolo (talk) 06:24, May 16, 2014 (UTC) :::= :::In regards to contributor 75.... A large amount, an army as recalled by McDonagh and tensions were high amongst Rapture (mentioned in the book and some audio diaries in previous installments). As I stated, the book had many situations where people were dying, especially in the middle and poorer areas. That is why there are Public Service Announcement telling or exemplifying citizens to go about their days, that Rapture is on the rise, and the New Years Gala at the Kashmir was to be the toast to the end of madness (Fontaine) but became the start of the Civil War. Nonetheless, Ryan probably had only a minute number of Little Sisters (Eleanor included) roaming the streets for ADAM while others had to go through mental conditioning (beginning of BaS1, we see Little Sisters who have yet to have been implanted with the slugs but have clear signs of conditioning). It was probably after that Ryan let out his menagerie of LS out into the streets as well as kidnapping more girls, including Masha. :::Mentioned by Pauolo, Ryan saw the Little Sisters as marketing gold and wanted them to roam the streets and have Public Service Announcement talking about the little sisters, just as he created the Gatherer's Garden in their image. As for the Protector Program, could very well be that once a number of Little Sisters started roaming Rapture, people (either spliced or not) would approach the Little Sisters which would cause them to retract from their duties out of fear. In BaS, they were still in the testing stages as Ryan knew he'd need insurance for his new endevours (Little Sisters). As discussed way before, the wikia has decided that both Alexander and Suchong worked alongside each other and once Suchong died, Gil gathered Suchong's work with his own and continued with the program from there (making latter models after the Alpha series and Delta). It's not like the two hadn't worked before (The Vita Chamber). :::Speaking of contradictions, your whole statement seems to be a contradiction within itself. You are deterred from having the Little Sisters roam freely before the Civil War (as seen in BaS 1+2 AS WELL AS Bioshock 2's opening sequence) yet fight for (what has already been thought out and solved by members of the wikia) Delta's creation, even though we see him roaming Rapture Pre-Fall with Eleanor. While the rest of the wikia is trying to make sense of the mess, it seems that you try to warrant an even bigger mess, what with adding " some mechanism to visially mark conflicting details between the different game versions." Tricksteroffools (talk) 07:08, May 16, 2014 (UTC) So much to debate... Tricksteroffools & Pauolo, you are refering to a discussion ("I was gonna add in the pages's behind the scenes section" , "we discussed this whole mess for days") I didn't had the chance to read about the best canon you came up with, can you point it to me, please ? Wikia is the worst for finding things :/ Thanks again FrenchSplicer (talk) 05:37, May 17, 2014 (UTC) :I agree, the search functions of Wikia suck. /: :Anyway, the discussion was initiated on a blog post by User:Pawn of Atlas, unfortunately, a good part of it completely went off-topic instead of proposing solutions. As for my part, I also had a similar discussion about this issue in canon on Irrational Games' forums with other people, and there were several threads about it too. Basically, the solution I proposed which we finally took (after having the opinion of one of the wiki's admins, User:Willbachbakal) was directly inspired by the novel BiOShock: Rapture, which somehow repaired that initial contradiction between the first two games. I'm not saying to consider the novel canon, but it showed that this fix in canon could work without being completely absurd. Pauolo (talk) 12:42, May 17, 2014 (UTC) :-- :Did you really just ignore what the previous wikia members explained for the sake of your own theory and assumptions? Like one of them said, you're whole idea is a contradiction within itself. The city was in high tensions as is and we always hear of the mistreatment and violence in the lower class parts of Rapture, Market and High street were part of the richer upper class so it was more maintained than not. If you don't like these supposed contradictions instead of trying to make sense of them on a timeline then make your own fanmade wikia, but you are not contributing to the wiki, you're just stirring things up. :A small number of corpses is all you need, and even whether or not they're transported to the mortuary, some may have been hidden or unreachable. I know, an assumption but its as much as an assumption as your narrow view. Seems like all you're set on is the first Bioshock game to be canon AND THEN adding your own visions of canon into some convuluded loss of what is given to what is thought. 22:04, May 18, 2014 (UTC) Continued :The investment in Point Prometheus was huge with all of the machinery, personel and equipment that needed to be designed, tested and built. Either as sumptions that in the future there would be many dead splicers to harvest or perhaps there were already many splicers dying from the effects of Adam. Maybe there were many dead splicers in their homes or abandoned buildings and not only on the streets. Evidence of the deadly effects of Adam on many people might not be really apparent in game or pehaps it was supressed, or perhaps the Protector Program was working really well ??? :-- :You hardly countered anything and who are you to call my "theories" assumptions as yours are just the same. Tension was mentioned from the book, of which this wikia takes as and not as canon, as well as evidence of corpses in Bioshock 2 which the wikia does consider as full canon. Violence (An example from each game): From the first Bioshock, torture in Neptune's Bounty by Sullivan and his men BEFORE the Civil War ( Timmy H. Interrogation ); from Bioshock 2, ridding of potential threats while there are still riots going on and does not mention Atlas placing it before the war ( Alone at Last ); from Bioshock: Rapture the novel, Jasmine Jolene's death by Ryan's own hands BEFORE the war; from Burial at Sea, Sander Cohen killing to actors on stage. Now, I may have my assumptions but these are backed up by in-game evidence from beginning to end games. Now, where is this evidence of non-rioting and peaceful Rapture you speak of, or are you mixing it up with your convuluted personal agenda of how Rapture ran by completely ignoring even the first canon game's evidence and replacing it with your own? :Argument at hand, plenty of evidence, I rest my case. Rapture wasn't the battlefield to what we see in the first game but was DEFINITELY the precursor with high tensions and violent acts/ rioting. : :Expensive how? Ryan ruled Rapture, he was the richest man owning several businesses and moreso rich when he "nationalized" Fontaine's plasmid business under Ryan Industries. I'm pretty sure he was able to pay but as Suchong said, he was a cheap sonavabitch, so progress was slow in creating more Little Sisters as well as fund the Big Daddy projects (which is why we only see a small number in Burial at Sea, 1 or 2, who actually worked as pseudo flawed protectors apart from being maintenance workers). Big Daddies, or at least the Bouncer and Rosie types before dubbed the iconic named, existed before the Big Daddy conversions as maintenance workers. Also, Fontaine already had a large number of Little Sisters under his wing which after his company's dissolution, they either were left orphans roaming the streets (evident by Burial at Sea) or taken in by Ryan ( Marketing Gold Bioshock 1, also evidence that Fontaine had Little Sisters though hidden in his company). :Personal vendettas aside, have you contributed to at least linked two and two together even if its two and one together? Simply put, instead of bashing and complaining about the games for weeks and months after the final releases while sending out rash needless arguments and even more coding and formatting complications, why not contribute to the work effort of trying to piece things together. That is my claim and argument. In the end, no matter what of your opinions of either games or its creators, this is a wikia, not a personal theory blog or what have you; what we get is what we give so make the best of it by (if you must) making/debating assumptions backed up by in-game evidence 'that would overall push forward efforts to make a cohesive world and timeline. 07:15, May 19, 2014 (UTC) ::::First, I don't know you, I don't keep tab on anonymous users on the wiki unless they're vandalizing it (intentionally or not), but I don't appreciate the fact that you're criticizing the integrity of the wiki over a single article, moreover simply complaining and not helping actually. ::::The start of the Protector Program was depicted as happening before the war in both ''BioShock 2 and Burial at Sea - Episode 2. What I'm doing here is keeping them together on the simple fact that the only difference in storyline between those two games is the date of Suchong's death. Since we only see in the DLC Suchong working alone on the project and not the rest of Fontaine Futuristics, I assume, without denying nor confirmation from the former developers at Irrational Games (hence no one can tell whether BioShock 2 is canon or not, regardless the numerous references done to the game in both DLC), that Alexander and Suchong could have been working on the same project with a different approach each (Alexander using brutal mental restraints to keep the Big Daddy protecting the girls, and Suchong looking for the solution directly in genetic manipulations). I believe changing '''ONE single element in the back story of BioShock 2 does not ruin its continuity, and could not be called fan fiction since every other element of said back story are still kept in the continuity and detailed. ::::Still, the single element you're whining about is completely incorrect. Mad Splicers were already a reality before the beginning of the Civil War, and things were not pink either for the city before it (just see the state and disfigurement of the Splicers trapped at Fontaine's). ADAM processing from the Little Sisters was more effective than collecting it from sea slugs, but dead Splicer's ADAM-filled corpses was a new and cheaper way to refine the genetic material back to its raw state. Moreover, the fight between Ryan's security and Fontaine's men involved a shit load of Splicers, and probably caused many casualties on both side, thus resulting in again more corpses to harvest. But the fact that Ryan was cheap on the Protector Program (reused test subjects for unstable Alpha Series to work on, Suchong's means limited too) proves that he was not going to invest too much on something that could just secure a new way to collect ADAM when there wasn't much of a serious conflict before 1959. That the Kashmir's party was left unprotected can be easily explained by the fact that Ryan locked up his last potential threats at Fontaine's, and that he was not expecting them to rise the store using technology from another reality. He couldn't abort the New Year's Eve celebration when its purpose was for the citizens to move on after the terrible events of the last months, and he probably trusted his security forces to handle the escaped prisoners without them blowing the shit out of the elite society of Rapture, or those already had agents in place who Atlas kept contact with even down at Fontaine's, and had a bomb placed before the masquerade ball (for example inside Atlas' statue since it looked to have blown up from the inside). ::::Apart from my reasoning to explain what is stated above, the rest are facts from the games. If you want to change them because you find them absurd, then that would be fan fiction trying to correct the storyline to be more plausible. I believe that after four years editing here I can make the difference between assumption and facts, I always make sure to avoid making the former to express my own opinion and hypothesis of the game's story, which I keep for talk pages, blogs and forums only. ::::Pauolo (talk) 07:32, May 20, 2014 (UTC) ::::-- ::::You still don't get it do you. You (75) are making this into some kind of fan fiction wikia as opposed to a Bioshock wikia that covers all 3 installments as well as any other media (Bioshock: Rapture Novel, Something in the Sea). Instead of comparing and contrasting to find a plausible solution that is not clouded by personal assumption and backed up by game or media evidence (that is not simply an observation), you continually argue for arguments sake, to the point of arguing on a topic despite it being in defense to what you previously said. 08:46, May 20, 2014 (UTC) :::: ::::::This grew larger than it should have. No versions, countless amount of people have debated back and forth with this and with the help of the Novel, of which you seem to completely ignore and disregard for whatever reason in your arguments, concludes that Suchong and Alexander worked alongside each other both. With Burial at Sea, we are given an exact visual day of Suchong's death (about 2 weeks into the Civil War) and upon closer examination, the first Bioshock shows no solid evidence of Suchong dying later. In Desperate Times, Ryan in simply taking note of Suchong's suggestion but in no way saying from henceforth of the time of recording that he was going to put that into effect, so it could all very well be the case that Ryan continued to ponder at this until he ultimately decided to go through with it. ::::::As for the Protector Program, I can see your point given Suchong's audio diary Protecting Little Ones, but again it can be interpreted as such, that Big Daddies were just one of countless methods that Suchong tried working on even previously before as he helped construct them in the first place. Technically, any official release produced is considered canon as this is a game title franchise wikia covering all Bioshock games as well as other media released as mentioned above. For the propose of this wikia, we as wikia contributors are trying to condense information into a cohesive piece. ::::::Once the girls, even if a few, were out on the street, Ryan would want some kind of insurance with his new asset (Marketing Gold). As for bodies, other than personal observation and "how the real world works", what evidence do you have that the bodies were bought to the morgues, do we see piles of bodies in the mortuary in the first Bioshock? In fact, in the first Bioshock (as through your arguments you seem to accept this as the only "true" canon), Sullivan tortures and kills a man leaving his corpse hanging in Timmy H. InterrogationlPicked Up Timmy H., Ryan talks of the Death Penalty in Rapture for smugglers as well as talking of "riots on the streets" which would have to be during Fontaine's time as it was Fontaine's operation, he also knew of the draw backs of the plasmid markets (The Market is Patient) which led to death, McDonagh remarks that Fontaine must have a mass of splicers the size of an army in Rapture ChanginglFontaine's Army and some of the ghost visions experienced portray normal people killing others (one remarked "...Say hello to Fontaine..."). ::::::Ryan put Fontaine's Army (supposedly the ones in the shoot-out) into the Department store, but that doesn't leave the spliced masses in the poorer regions and/ or the rest of the population who thanks to the nationalization may have had spliced to their wits end. Fontaine was a crafty fellow, he had a tight nit group and people feared him and dared not challenge his authority specifically. And yes, indeed as you point out, gathering risks the chance of Little Sisters dying on the "job" therefor the Protector Program started up or at least was in initial testing mode. ::::::As Pauolo explained, it was to take people's mind off of recent events, to start the New Years anew, most of the richer areas of Rapture would not be exposed to the horrors that the poorer areas did given a lot of the murders and the like happened in Port Neptune and other adjacent or like areas apart from news coverage. ::::::I do agree that I do not agree to the concept of canon given each individual has their own idea of canon and in reality were are adding bits of information from pure observation with what information and back-up we find within the games/ media, and it's also not our right to say or call something canon unless it comes straight from the creators of the franchise, so I'd stick to what I said previously of trying to create a cohesive piece that a broad aspect of people have access to for more insight into the world of Bioshock, whether Rapture or Columbia, in its entirety. Tricksteroffools (talk) 09:45, May 20, 2014 (UTC) ::::::'' '' "hence no one can tell whether BioShock 2 is canon or not, regardless the numerous references done to the game in both DLC" ::::::Pauolo, 2 is canon, I don't know why it wouldn't be. It's an official release and since the likelyhood of new bioshock games in the future is very high, and since they have stated the possibility of 2k marin working on it, it is extremely likely that they will included/pick up from 2. Although it has not been directly stated/said, it is heavily implied that all three games and all the dlc's are canon. There is a difference between head/personal canon and assumpions and official canon. I understand that this subject has been in debate/debated for some time now, I am simply stating the most logical answer based on what I have researched myself. I also understand that this is an older thread (I also have no intentions of continuing this argument), I feel like this needs to be stated/said. (Kelis98 (talk) 16:47, March 6, 2016 (UTC)) ::::: best solution: stop. a warning to anyone who wanna continue this thing. these arguments are doing nothing and going nowhere. it's pointless, besides that it's majority against one on the cutting room floor, no way the wiki is gonna allow changes based on dry assumptions 19:27, May 20, 2014 (UTC) In Behind The Scenes : BS2 ...Suchong's death, under the command of Sofia Lamb ??? says : In BioShock 2, the original plot had Subject Delta responsible for Suchong's death, under the command of Sofia Lamb. '''She acted in order to give the control of the Protector Program to Alexander', who was already faithful to her. '' Where is that shown/heard about in BS2 ? The BS1 Audio Diary with the 'slap' and the sound (we think) of the Big Daddy there (whichever one it is) apparently attacking Suchong (we assume it is Suchongs corpse pinned to the table with a BD drill. I dont recall anything about Lamb having made that happen - is that something from the BaS stuff ? :I should have better told it. It was in fact in removed audio diaries and radio messages from the last levels. The localization texts of BioShock 2 contain a lot of those, and they basically re-tell the original version of the game, where Eleanor was the single Big Sister, Ava Tate (Ryan's propaganda agent) was responsible for erasing people from the public's opinion, Dionysus Park was preserved even 8 years after the war, Stanley was married to Gracie Holloway (hence the "Uncle Stanley" displayed in the Little Sister playthrough of Outer Persephone, etc... I have those texts but unfortunately not the time to bring them on the wiki right now. :Also please sign your post on talk pages. Pauolo (talk) 07:07, May 20, 2014 (UTC) :- :Stanley was married to Gracie Holloway '' ??? :Which details say that (uncle is frequently used as a ephemism' for someone around alot and being familiar which Stanley Poole would be if he ran Dionysus Park (for Sofia) and little Eleanor was there alot). : 00:09, March 7, 2016 (UTC) Gender(s) of Big Daddies? Are the individuals in the suits strictly male? Or was it possible that females became Big Daddies as well, as its just known that they were heavily spliced individuals who had their skin grafted to the suits. Though multiplayer isn't fully canon, nor do the characters go through the treatment into becoming a Big Daddy, the female multiplayer characters can enter the suit as much as the male counterparts can. Thoughts? Tricksteroffools (talk) 21:54, June 14, 2014 (UTC) - Could be either. The modifications would have to be major to first operate a suit weighing hundreds of pounds out of water and being able to withstand 100s PSI of changing pressure (the suits are not pressure proof - they have canvas legs/arms). By the time the mods were through, gender might not matter much and the 'caring for the LS' was heavily conditioned .) 00:14, March 7, 2016 (UTC) More substance please Kudos to adding all of this Big Daddy lore, but that is probably the least important information for a gaming wiki, especially when it comes to THE biggest enemy within the game. That being said, there is not a single sentence concerning game strategy of how to take these monsters down best, quickest or easiest. Which weapon, which ammo, which plasmids work best, which locations in which level provide good attack locations, how to set up traps and lure these monsters into them. I'm all the more surprised, because the splicer pages do have quite huge and well rounded strategy sections. - You will probably find the 'Daddy' killer details/tactics under each individual Weapon/Plasmid. 00:05, March 7, 2016 (UTC) Correct plural of Big Daddy This is nit-picky but the correct plural of Big Daddy is Big Daddys. This is because Big Daddy is a proper noun - evident by the fact that it's always capitalized - and the correct way to pluralize a proper noun is to simply add an "s" and not to change the "y" to an "ie." It's just like how the Toronto Maple Leaf Hockey Club was pluralized to Maple Leafs instead of Leaves. You can check with grammarian.com if you disagree (I did). '(RayThePurple (talk) 19:17, August 30, 2018 (UTC)) ' RayThePurple :While that might be grammatically correct, BioShock 2 however, uses "Big Daddies" in its help texts: BioShock 2 Help Captions#Big Daddies. We're just following the games here, just like with the audio diary transcripts. —'Mainframe98 talk·blog· ''' 20:56, August 30, 2018 (UTC)